Tri-Cotti

[Shirl]

I've bought a Tri-Cotti for my little one due March. I've also got a wilkinet, peerie & coorie.

Looking at the other thread about slings for newborns I'm wondering if the wraps will give me anything in addition to the slings I've already got. Ideally I'd like to do a back carry with a newborn. I'm only 5ft 2 and with DD I found with my short arms I couldn't reach around her to do the washing up for example. It feels a bit ambitious to be thinking about a back carry for a newborn but I can practice with DDs Baby Annabell in case I drop it 8o Annabell might be a bit light though.

I was thinking of just popping bubs in the coorie and sliding it around to the back so that I can do things whilst I'm pretty still (like the washing up & cooking).

What do you think?

Shirl

[mamadillo]

I haven't done cradle back-carries but I have carried dd4 on my back in a woven wrap from about 10wks. I would think a pouch might be a bit loose in a back-carry, might be an anatomical variation thing that though.

[MoominHannah]

My concerns about using a pouch for a back carry with a *newborn* would be that it'd be very difficult for you to attend to correct positioning for your baby.

In a pouch, it is very easy for newborns to roll inwards and bury their face in your body. Obviously this isn't great when they're tiny as it can make it difficult for them to breathe.

I would think that this rolling would be more likely in a back carry as well as more difficult to monitor.

Equally, the material of the pouch could end up covering your baby's face so you'd need to know what's going on really.

Another very important positioning issue with pouches
is ensuring that your baby's airway is clear whilst being carried in a cradle carry - ie that their chin doesn't end up pressed against their chest. This again, is very simple to keep an eye on when your baby is on the front of your body, but less so on your back.

I'd be more inclined to try an upright back carry with a newborn. A high back carry with a soft woven like an Indio or something would be better IMO.

p.s don't mean to be scare-mongering or anything, it's just that positioning with pouches is very important.

[Shirl]

Thanks ladies. I was a bit concerned that a pouch would move a bit too much and my general concern with bubs being on the back is I won't be able to see what's going on. I thought at least a pouch I could move around every now and then to take a peek. I understand what you're saying about the airways though it's the same issue with car seats isn't it. I've beem looking at the mei tai type carriers. I saw a newborn back carry on the Kozy website I think but I not sure I'm convinced by the head support and also it looks a bit iffy getting bubs up there safely.

I'll have a look at the Indio.

Thanks

[sparkypants]

Hi Shirl

I don't recommend using the Coorie or Peerie in back carries. They are perfectly possible but you cannot guarantee your baby's safety, you are not 'right there' the same way that you are with front carries.

When R was little, I used to spin the whole sling round a little so that she was still in cradle hold but more on my hip if I had to do something with my arms - I have to say, I left the dishes for dh though!!!

L xxx

[Mia]

Originally posted by MoominHannah
...- ie that their chin doesn't end up pressed against their chest...
I agree with Hannah about everything but this i think. ;) Cause it it not a bad dangerous position for babies to look a little squeezed. They been squeezed for nine months... They will tell if they are not comfortable.

One idea is to get a smaller MeiTai. It is easy to get the baby up on your back and as long as you tie it right it is secure and the baby will be in a good position. You keep the babies legs inside the MT so it is seated like a frog and make sure you spread the shoulderstraps carefully on the sides of the baby. Ill see if i can find a pic.

[Mia]

Also..
It took a very long time til i didnt think it was possible to do things like cooking with the baby on front, i mean you are used to a big tummy and the baby will be smaller and higher, right?! :)

[Shirl]

Hi Mia

I used a wilkinet and a peerie with DD but with her being higher up I found it hard to reach around her. I must have serioulsy stubby arms :D

Can't seem to find anything about the Indio, if anyone has a link I'd appreciate it. Otherwise maybe I'll just have to try the Mai Tai.

Thanks

Shirl

[Mia]

Indio is a didymos wrap.
Just a name of some fabrics and colours...
have a look att www.didymos.de
Here is a pic of a friend carrying a 8 week old.
http://www.sjalbarn.se/data/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9370&highlight=freja
It is easy with alittle help, a big mirror and on your knees on a very soft place ;)

[brooklyn]

They will tell if they are not comfortable.
actually not always, there is a mum in the US doing testing on newborn's position in slings and she's noticed that some children don't complain.
The tell-tell sign is that their breathing is laboured, they grunt.

I can't find the link to her article on tbw but I'll try to dig it out later.

[Shirl]

Thanks Mia

I couldn't view the pic it wanted me to login.

Looking on the didymos website it says the back carry is only suitable once bubs has head control. Did your friend use a different method to the ones shown on the website?

Shirl

[Mia]

Well ok, Anne... I guess it is just the same as if a baby should sleep on ther tummy or on their back.. or in the same bed or not...there are diffrent teories. And many babies snore, it is normal especially because they often have milk and stuff in their airways. I say: Trust YOUR instinct and belive in yourself as a mother and that you know your kid!

Backcarries where the baby have no headsupport is not recommended until they are older. But you can support babies head as good as on front. It is the same wrap and position as for older ones but you keep the babys head inside.
http://www.familjeliv.se/krypin/kixan/gallery/php9gma89.jpg http://www.familjeliv.se/krypin/kixan/gallery/phpaqldiq.jpg
And here is a little beauiful one 1 month old
http://alms.blogg.se/images/mt2_1157288951.jpg http://alms.blogg.se/images/mt1_1157288934.jpg

[Shirl]

Thy are great pics. Thanks Mia.

What is the pink & orange sling? It looks quite padded and as if it might be easier to do by myself. They other one I don't think i'd be able to get bubs head tucked in if I were by myself. I can't trust DD to help she's only 2. :)

[Mia]

Originally posted by calinbleu

They will tell if they are not comfortable.
actually not always, there is a mum in the US doing testing on newborn's position in slings and she's noticed that some children don't complain.
The tell-tell sign is that their breathing is laboured, they grunt.

I can't find the link to her article on tbw but I'll try to dig it out later.
I found this, i guess thats what you meant?
http://www.thebabywearer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27841&highlight=breathing

Just to disscuss...
I didnt read every post but some thoughts came across my mind..
Did she just test 1 baby? How can you trust just 1 och even just a few tests? How do you really know it is because the chin is "to low"? (she is just speculating over that... And perhaps the baby couldnt take care of all the oxygen just because he was uncomfortable, perhaps reflux or..? To me it seems to be just a little too week... But i do agree that the correct position is to be seated bum low and head higher and not turnd towards the one who carry.

[Mia]

Originally posted by Shirl
Thy are great pics. Thanks Mia.

What is the pink & orange sling? It looks quite padded and as if it might be easier to do by myself. They other one I don't think i'd be able to get bubs head tucked in if I were by myself. I can't trust DD to help she's only 2. :)
Oh, it is a homemade MT from a girl in the swedish forum. It is not padded.

[Mia]

And..
It is not so hard to get the head in when they are that small! You just wrap it in while you are leaning forward in a softarea.
It is harder when they ar older and want to look around and then fall asleep...

[Shirl]

I'd say the chin on the chest isn't good because that's why we're advised not to leave babies in car seats too long. It's because they can be scrunched up and it can impact on their intake of oxygen. I don't think the baby in that article looked particularly scrunched though.

I guess I have a choice between a wrap and a MT then. Would a stretchy wrap be easier? I'd rather woven because it'll last longer but what I need more than anything is for it to work for me.

Thanks again

[Mia]

Ok, that can be right but what is "too long"?
I heard they recommend just 30 mins in a carseat at one time because it can hurt babys back to be to upright and the bumping....

Well nothing beats a stretchy wrap on front for newborns! But you are not adviced to use them on your back. But you can use a vowen one from start but it is not just as cosy and easy... An economic question..

Honestly, i think you will carry on your front most! It is cosy and you can have 100% contact and it is easier...

[Shirl]

I went to see my local council car safety advisor a couple of weeks ago and she was saying 30 mins up to 6 weeks old and 1 1/2 hours after 6 weeks.

For ease of use I'll probably stick to me pouches when I want bubs on the front or the wilkinet for longer periods. I'm really just looking for something for a back carry at the moment. I think woven is the obvious choice then unless I go MT.

Thanks for all your help.

[Mia]

About the articles...
Everything i heard before, even from experts and doctors is that the back shold be slightly rounded, why is this "now" not correct?
(i know im critical in the beginning but i can change my mind ;) )
I know it is possible to carry with both rounded leg and straight neck. Here is me and Nemo for example. Im sure i can pusch his back towards my tummy a few cm but me and all i know befor thought this was the right supporting position.
More comments please!!
http://www.sjalbarn.se/MarkenHemsida/Ringo/havss%E4v2.jpg

[Shirl]

I thi k the back being rounded is correct just not at the expense of the airway. It must be pretty difficult to get a baby with a rounded back and yet the head slightly reclined, and then keep bubs in that position. It sounds quite uncomfortable to me.

Maybe someone else can enlighten us.

[kaismum]

For me, I feel a bit nevous about cradle position in pouches in general. Kai never really liked the cradle position in pouches or RS.
I don't think he ever got comfortable in them. (he was a big baby.) I also have a bit insecure feeling about it since there was a baby who died in a sling like that. After reading that, I got nervous more and more. :(
At the end, i figured if it worries me that much, why bother? There are so many other positions I can use.

I think as a parent, you should trust yourself and what you can do. Doesn't really matter what others say. As long as you feel happy and confident about what you are doing. And this position is something I didn't feel confident enough to use.

I say, start using wraps now. As Mia said, it is so much easier to do backwraps with little ones than toddlers. :) Yes, it takes time to learn, but it really pays off at the end. Believe me, when your child gets heavy, you will reach for the wrap. ;)

Mia, Nemo is so tiny!!! Wow, how time flies! he running around now.....

[baretrix]

Originally posted by Mia

I found this, i guess thats what you meant?
http://www.thebabywearer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27841&highlight=breathing

Just to disscuss...
I didnt read every post but some thoughts came across my mind..
Did she just test 1 baby? How can you trust just 1 och even just a few tests? How do you really know it is because the chin is "to low"? (she is just speculating over that... And perhaps the baby couldnt take care of all the oxygen just because he was uncomfortable, perhaps reflux or..? To me it seems to be just a little too week... But i do agree that the correct position is to be seated bum low and head higher and not turnd towards the one who carry.

IIRC M'liss conducted in excess of 15 studies, testing positioning/breathing/oxygen etc. Chin-to-chest is not a good position for baby (or for anyone actually - try it yourself!)

[Mia]

Originally posted by baretrix

Originally posted by Mia

I found this, i guess thats what you meant?
http://www.thebabywearer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27841&highlight=breathing

Just to disscuss...
I didnt read every post but some thoughts came across my mind..
Did she just test 1 baby? How can you trust just 1 och even just a few tests? How do you really know it is because the chin is "to low"? (she is just speculating over that... And perhaps the baby couldnt take care of all the oxygen just because he was uncomfortable, perhaps reflux or..? To me it seems to be just a little too week... But i do agree that the correct position is to be seated bum low and head higher and not turnd towards the one who carry.

IIRC M'liss conducted in excess of 15 studies, testing positioning/breathing/oxygen etc. Chin-to-chest is not a good position for baby (or for anyone actually - try it yourself!)
Ok, so what about the back?
Perhaps i dont se the problem cause i dont really think the pictures shows a really bad position? I can imagine though if it was worse... I just think it sound strange to try to "create" "the Sshape" before a baby can walk, its then it comes natural!

[baretrix]

Yes, I agree it is good for baby to have a curved back - this is the shape of the spine when we cradle baby in our arms.

[MoominHannah]

I agree that a curved spinal position for a baby is by far the best. I think Didymos have a small article about infant spine development on their site?

The issue is different when you are talking about an upright or a horizontal carry though.

For an upright carry, particular attention needs to be paid to the support of the baby's spine - there should
be adequete amounts of fabric covering the thigns as well as the bum, right up to the crook of the baby's knee, and the "froggie position" or "upright Squat" is the best way to make sure.

If the baby is wrapped closely enough to the mum then they will both benefit from this: mum will find it easier to carry her baby as the weight is kept close to her centre of gravity, and the baby's back will be supported by the tight cloth.

Horizontal/cradle carries automatically support the baby's spine, but incorrect positioning *can* mean that a baby finds it harder to breathe. It is all very well to talk about positioning being similar mother's womb, but remember that in utero a baby receives it's oxygen via the umbilical cord!

I think the key with all of this is finding out what works for you and your baby, bearing in mind common sense and general safety issues. We are all the more powerful when we have the right information!

The chin-to-chest issue is not something I had heard about when I was carrying Oz in a pouch. I'm *sure* there were times when his chin was pushed into his chest.

It is interesting the work that M'liss (who is a registered nurse) has been doing.
Obviously, she is limited in the time she can spend on this, and she receives no funding I believe. Of course a proper randomised control trial (which is the benchmark for medical research) would require far greater numbers than those M'liss is working with. But who knows, her small effort could one day provide a suitable application for funding for a bigger trial.

[kl_gendron]

I know when I donated a Natya Ring sling to a breastfeeding clinic and was speaking with Karen, she indicated that they had developped some 'positioning device' for newborns in ring slings (especially cradle holds) - she called it a 'newborn sling booster' designed to assist you in positioning newborn and premature babies in the sling for optimum oxygen saturation. Haven't seen one, but it may be worth asking her about.

[brooklyn]

Finally found it, here is the article about the position:
http://www.thebabywearer.com/articles/HowTo/CorrectPositioning.htm

kl_gendron, You can see the little pillow they made to prop up the child

HTH

[Mia]

Anne showed me some pics today, i think i have forgotten that there really are people with really bad knoledge about baies and slings and that not have as much common sense... :evil: :( I didnt think you could place a baby That wrong... But i remember seeing a few bad examples...

[brooklyn]

I think that's the great thing when you can meet other bw in real life, they can help you use your sling better.

It makes an amazing difference :)

[MoominHannah]

Originally posted by calinbleu
I think that's the great thing when you can meet other bw in real life, they can help you use your sling better.

It makes an amazing difference :)

Exactly! Learning good positioning with slings is a little similar to learning good positioning for breastfeeding - once you have seen other mums do it, and have someone experienced to show you the tricks, it can get a lot easier than trying to figure it out alone.

It's all about mum-to-mum support isn't it, which is why Sling Meet is such a great site :)

[kl_gendron]

Originally posted by calinbleu
Finally found it, here is the article about the position:
http://www.thebabywearer.com/articles/HowTo/CorrectPositioning.htm

kl_gendron, You can see the little pillow they made to prop up the child

HTH

Thanks for this link - it is great, I will remember it when I am speaking with new mums -

cheers, krista

[baretrix]

Originally posted by Shirl
I don't think i'd be able to get bubs head tucked in if I were by myself. I can't trust DD to help she's only 2. :)


I saw this (http://www.thebabywearer.com/gallery/files/8/1/7/8/IMG_0992.JPG) and thought of you!


I'm not totally sure how to do it though!

[Hannah]

Just wanted to add - you can use your Wilkinet on your back from an early age too. It's quite easy to get on and not too scary 'cause they're tied in first.

My dd is about 10 weeks in this picture:-

http://hometown.aol.co.uk/HHamer2001/wilkitibetan.jpg